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02:42:49 <yeonhoo> hum
02:42:50 <yeonhoo> hi
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05:44:49 <mhausenblas> good morning Web of Data
05:46:23 <mhausenblas> http://jowl.ontologyonline.org/
05:46:24 <dc_swig> A: http://jowl.ontologyonline.org/ from mhausenblas
05:46:43 <mhausenblas> A:| jOWL is a jQuery plugin for navigating and visualising OWL-RDFS documents
05:46:45 <dc_swig> Titled item A.
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06:53:00 <mhausenblas> libby!!!
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08:13:12 <Wikier> Pointer Methods in RDF
08:13:18 <Wikier> http://www.w3.org/TR/Pointers-in-RDF/
08:13:20 <dc_swig> B: http://www.w3.org/TR/Pointers-in-RDF/ from Wikier
08:13:27 <Wikier> B:|Pointer Methods in RDF
08:13:28 <dc_swig> Titled item B.
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08:49:40 <mhausenblas> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/happy_20th_birthday_world_wide_web.php
08:49:41 <dc_swig> C: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/happy_20th_birthday_world_wide_web.php from mhausenblas
08:49:50 <mhausenblas> C:| Happy 20th Birthday, World Wide Web
08:49:51 <dc_swig> Titled item C.
08:50:21 <mhausenblas> C: includes the video of TimBL's TED talk (finally we've found it ;)
08:50:23 <dc_swig> Added comment C1.
08:50:54 <ldodds> ldodds has joined #swig
08:50:55 <mhausenblas> C: congrats from my side as well! now: the next 20 years - let's start with linked data :D
08:50:56 <dc_swig> Added comment C2.
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09:03:12 <kjetilkWork> strange, I can't find timbl's talk from ted.com/
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09:09:12 <mhausenblas> kjetilkWork: yeah, true, re video on TED ... dunno
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09:14:07 <kjetilkWork> Supposedly, they want to promote it and it isn't officially out yet, perhaps they'll do it today?
09:15:08 <kjetilkWork>  
09:15:29 <bengee> "will be posted on the TED website early Friday morning"
09:16:16 <mhausenblas> yeah, might be
09:16:30 <mhausenblas> wondering though how r/w web did it then ;)
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09:17:05 <mhausenblas> I really love the scene where TimBL animates the people like 'speak after me' : raw RAW data DATA now NOW ;)
09:18:01 <mhausenblas> bengee, got time today?
09:18:07 <mhausenblas> re ESWC09 skype chat
09:18:20 <mhausenblas> round 12:00CET ...
09:18:28 <bengee> not much, but 30mins or so would be ok
09:18:34 <mhausenblas> great!
09:18:38 <mhausenblas> can you demo something?
09:19:28 <bengee> not sure yet. still working on UI stuff
09:20:04 <mhausenblas> right
09:20:09 <mhausenblas> well, let's see ;)
09:20:09 <kjetilkWork> * kjetilkWork will watch it on my TV tonight
09:20:11 <mhausenblas> thanks
09:20:20 <mhausenblas> nJoy ;)
09:20:28 <kjetilkWork> :-)
09:21:34 <kjetilkWork> * kjetilkWork managed to get his semweb, swig and his name mentioned in one of Norway's largest papers today: http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/03/13/kultur/tekno/internett/world_wide_web/tim_berners-lee/5255906/
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09:27:18 <kjetilkWork> http://www.leirdal.net/blog/uploads/semanticcake2.jpg
09:27:20 <dc_swig> D: http://www.leirdal.net/blog/uploads/semanticcake2.jpg from kjetilkWork
09:27:40 <kjetilkWork> D:|The Layer Cake; in celebration of the day
09:27:41 <dc_swig> Titled item D.
09:27:53 <kjetilkWork> D:And David Norheim's birthday tomorrow
09:27:54 <dc_swig> Added comment D1.
09:28:15 <mhausenblas> congrats kjetilkWork
09:28:33 <kjetilkWork> congrats, mhausenblas!
09:29:34 <kjetilkWork> D1:And [http://www.leirdal.net/blog/archives/140-Semantic-Web-Layer-Cake.html|David Norheim]'s birthday tomorrow
09:29:36 <dc_swig> Replaced comment D1.
09:30:22 <mhausenblas> kjetilkWork: for what?
09:30:48 <kjetilkWork> D: Baked by Computas Engineer Terese Liadal
09:30:49 <dc_swig> Added comment D2.
09:31:00 <kjetilkWork> mhausenblas, for the web, it belongs to us all now :-)
09:31:41 <mhausenblas> stupid bugger you are ;)
09:32:03 <kjetilkWork> :-)
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09:32:19 <kjetilkWork> D:+[http://www.leirdal.net/blog/uploads/semanticcake2.jpg]
09:32:20 <dc_swig> Added comment D3.
09:33:19 <kjetilkWork> Terese did her master's using SWRL, as you can probably tell :-)
09:33:42 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas back to getting pushback fusion done
09:33:50 <kjetilkWork> :-)
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09:53:38 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas just thinking of cygri this lucky bastard, now sitting at CERN an participating in the 20year Web celebration ... on the other hand he's really deserved it ... have fun :)
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10:27:04 <Leaving> how do you solve the following issue: hasAge property must be read-only and calculated (NOW - hasBirthDate)
10:28:07 <swh> Leaving: you could use DOB fields instead
10:28:41 <tlr> tlr has quit
10:29:40 <Leaving> DOB - date of birth?
10:29:45 <swh> yeah
10:30:14 <Leaving> is this a specification or what?
10:30:24 <swh> age is only really useful if you're emitting live data
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10:30:45 <swh> is what a specification?
10:31:04 <Leaving> those DOB fields
10:32:12 <Leaving> it would be just comfortable to have two properties for this
10:32:38 <Leaving> one for actual storing the date and one for reading age
10:34:05 <swh> http://vocab.org/bio/0.1.html represents date of birth
10:34:06 <dc_swig> E: http://vocab.org/bio/0.1.html from swh
10:34:22 <swh> E:| BIO ontology
10:34:23 <dc_swig> Titled item E.
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10:46:46 <mhausenblas> now, this really rocks
10:47:09 <mhausenblas> our main pushback developer, Szymon just gave me a demo on a Jira pushback
10:47:37 <mhausenblas> Jira (http://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/) is for tracking bugs and issues
10:48:03 <mhausenblas> what he basically did is take my proof of concept from Twitter and applied it to a Jira bug report form
10:48:18 <mhausenblas> we're now able to change an issue
10:49:00 <mhausenblas> based on a BAETLE2RDForms mapping, the RDForm is able to pushback the changes to the Jira instance
10:52:17 <bengee> cool
10:54:15 <Leaving> The requested resource http://vocab.orghttp://vocab.org/bio/0.1.html was not found on this server (empty description)
10:54:21 <Leaving> :(
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10:55:00 <mhausenblas> I'll set it up at the ld2sd server as soon as I can and share
10:55:09 <mhausenblas> (the Jira demo, I mean)
10:55:21 <mhausenblas> btw, I've also created a Google project for pushback
10:55:36 <mhausenblas> in case you're interested lemme know and I add you there
10:55:48 <mhausenblas> .g pushback Google project RDF
10:55:49 <phenny> mhausenblas: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySources
10:55:55 <mhausenblas> mhm
10:56:01 <mhausenblas> http://code.google.com/p/pushback/
10:56:02 <dc_swig> F: http://code.google.com/p/pushback/ from mhausenblas
10:56:21 <mhausenblas> F:| Google code home for pushback
10:56:23 <dc_swig> Titled item F.
10:56:43 <mhausenblas> F: let /me know in case you want to contribute
10:56:45 <dc_swig> Added comment F1.
10:57:57 <mhausenblas> F: side note on the Google code content (incl. Jira demo)  I'll provide the sources later today
10:57:59 <dc_swig> Added comment F2.
10:58:24 <mhausenblas> F: gotta clean up a bit, do some quiche eating commenting and provide READMEs
10:58:26 <dc_swig> Added comment F3.
10:58:44 <mhausenblas> F: any feedback more than welcome, as usual to michael.hausenblas AT deri.org
10:58:45 <dc_swig> Added comment F4.
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13:28:05 <libby> * libby finds http://www94.web.cern.ch/WWW94/Images/ClosingPanel/Closingpanel5.gif
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13:30:54 <mischat> are you partying at cern libby ?
13:34:58 <libby> yeh :)
13:35:10 <libby>  http://www.flickr.com/photos/pldms/3350756203/
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13:43:45 <kjetilkWork> * kjetilkWork is responsible for all the Norwegians joining just now, he suspects :-)
13:44:35 <Lars-NO> * Lars-NO cheers for Dagbladet.no
13:45:38 <kjetilkWork> :-)
13:45:58 <kjetilkWork> that was a off-the record thing, but well :-)
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14:09:46 <bblfish> how does one say in N3
14:09:53 <bblfish> the union of X and what I believe?
14:10:37 <bblfish> ( X <> ) log:conjunction union . ?
14:13:40 <bblfish> ( G1 mygraph ) log:conjunction theunionofTheTwo .
14:13:55 <bblfish> I am trying inject my beliefs into someone else's graph
14:14:12 <bblfish> to see what they would agree to given what I know
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14:21:54 <BenO> * BenO watching http://webcast.cern.ch as I sit here and rue being in the office and not in Geneva!
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14:28:43 <mhausenblas> ha cygri is on TV ;)
14:29:57 <mhausenblas> such a slacker. I call him on his mobile while watching him. and he turns me down. just wait when you come back home ;)
14:30:00 <mhausenblas> logger, pointer
14:30:01 <logger> See http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-03-13#T14-30-00
14:30:14 <mhausenblas> phenny, tell cygri see http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2009-03-13#T14-30-00
14:30:15 <phenny> mhausenblas: I'll pass that on when cygri is around.
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14:31:58 <kasei> heh
14:32:27 <mhausenblas> kasei: don't laugh . that's bloody serious.
14:32:30 <mhausenblas> :D
14:32:53 <kasei> i just love that phenny is now going to harrass him with it when he's next around.
14:33:02 <mhausenblas> that was the idea, indeed
14:33:14 <mhausenblas> such a lucky bastard
14:33:25 <mhausenblas> ha I mentioned that already, right? ;)
14:33:43 <mhausenblas> anways, how about you these days, kasei
14:33:49 <mhausenblas> all well I hope?
14:34:29 <kasei> yeah, pretty good here. school is on break for a week, so been hacking on my sparql engine and some othe r pet projects.
14:35:21 <mhausenblas> cool
14:35:33 <mhausenblas> ah, btw, did I ask you already re pushback?
14:36:00 <kasei> don't recall anything named that... (?)
14:36:01 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas annoying anyone here with it who doesn't run away quickly enough ;) 
14:36:08 <mhausenblas> .g pushback RDForms
14:36:10 <phenny> mhausenblas: http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/
14:36:16 <mhausenblas> well, not bad
14:36:30 <mhausenblas>  http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySources
14:36:57 <mhausenblas> the first link was the RDForms generator prototype
14:37:12 <mhausenblas> the idea is: make it a write-able SW
14:37:25 <mhausenblas> as most real-world sites don't run RDF stores
14:37:42 <mhausenblas> but we already have a lot RDF data to view/browse
14:37:53 <kasei> ooh. like the idea (esp. flickr)
14:38:27 <mhausenblas> so, what do you use when you are 'in' the semantic space (i.e. viewing and RDF doc) and want to update the Web 2.0 data source from which it has been derived
14:39:01 <mhausenblas> very simple: take the original HTML form from that very Web 2.0 site, decorate it with RDFa and there you go ;)
14:39:15 <mhausenblas> along comes a simple key-value vocabulary
14:39:19 <kasei> eh. "subscribe to public-lod". I just turned that off because I couldn't keep up with the traffic! :(
14:39:28 <mhausenblas> come on
14:39:29 <mischat> pfff, the webcast has gone black for me :(
14:39:39 <mhausenblas> damn. lemme check
14:39:57 <mhausenblas> yep, true
14:40:22 <mhausenblas> [privacy setting] party=TRUE, location=CERN ;)
14:41:50 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas back to the fusion engine
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14:42:20 <BenO> mhausenblas, heh - btw I am very interested in RDForms - (saw JeniT at the Oxford SWIG meet)
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14:46:02 <swh> mhausenblas: the pushback stuff looks really cool
14:51:11 <mischat> audio is back up again on the cern.webcast
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14:52:31 <mhausenblas> hey cool BenO
14:52:41 <mhausenblas> ah, did she mentioned it?
14:52:46 <mhausenblas> thanks swh
14:52:56 <mhausenblas> wait for the Jira screencast ;)
14:53:20 <mhausenblas> mischat: visual as well ;)
14:53:33 <BenO> mhausenblas, She had your interface in one or two of her slides
14:54:03 <swh> mhausenblas: it seems like if the legacy->RDF thing was more structured you might be able to reverse it in some cases, eg. if it worked like XSLT
14:54:04 <mhausenblas> wow, that's nice of her (even though I'd not even call it a prototype, now ;)
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14:54:12 <swh> but doing the first bit is already crazy hard
14:54:37 <mhausenblas> swh, talked with cygri long about reversing DBpedia process
14:54:41 <BenO> mhausenblas, both your and her applications do serve as good examples as to why rdfa is so useful
14:54:43 <mhausenblas> short answer: forget it ;)
14:54:48 <swh> heh :)
14:54:57 <mhausenblas> yep, BenO but that is just a by-product
14:55:19 <mhausenblas> I really belive in pushback enabling a total new class of use cases
14:55:37 <mhausenblas> in contrast to the read-only SW we have now
14:55:52 <mhausenblas> regarding real-world sites and services I mean
14:56:05 <mhausenblas> not about academia/research stuff where we're all good at ;)
14:56:11 <mhausenblas> ah, they start again
14:56:16 <BenO> mhausenblas, I think that it could help 'fix' the problems with html forms on a *very* practical level
14:56:48 <mhausenblas> yep ;)
14:57:04 <mhausenblas> in 1h Tim is going to present
14:57:13 <BenO> mhausenblas, Seeing as most of my work to archive information uses RDF as its currency, simplifying RDF+HTML forms is a massive win for me
14:57:20 <mhausenblas> now this guy does it in French
14:57:28 <mhausenblas> good BenO
14:57:35 <mhausenblas> add a use case, please :)
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14:57:49 <BenO> mhausenblas, Here or somewhere else? :)
14:57:52 <mischat> in 5 mins timbl will present ?
14:58:24 <mhausenblas> no in 1h
14:58:34 <mischat> ok
14:58:45 <mhausenblas> ah, hang on 1h time shift
14:58:50 <mhausenblas> damn, I missed it
14:58:53 <shellac> No, 5 mins
14:58:56 <mhausenblas> did he say 4:00pm?
14:59:01 <mhausenblas> ah, ok, thanks!!!
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14:59:06 <shellac> Yep
14:59:12 <mhausenblas> great
14:59:36 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas off for a quick fag and grab some coffee, be back after the 'break' :D
14:59:36 <shellac> Not started quite yet. Don't panic
14:59:45 <mhausenblas> yeah, I see ;D
14:59:51 <BenO> The music is... 80s awesomeness btw...
15:00:01 <mhausenblas> aaaaaaaaaawful
15:00:03 <mhausenblas> :D
15:00:16 <mhausenblas> reading thoughts of the people in the audience:
15:00:23 <mhausenblas> when the heck comes Tim ;)
15:00:37 <BenO> reading the emails of some people near the camera ;)
15:00:54 <mhausenblas> I mean, nothing against the kids in the video. nice.got myself three of them, but,  ....
15:00:55 <kasei> is this stream public?
15:00:58 <mhausenblas> anyway, BRB
15:01:01 <mhausenblas> yeah
15:01:06 <mhausenblas> go to http://webcast.cern.ch/
15:01:12 <kasei> ta
15:01:16 <mhausenblas> welcome
15:02:33 <shellac> This last game looks fun
15:02:50 <shellac> We were dressed like that this morning
15:04:11 <kasei> hahaha... cernettes?
15:04:19 <kasei> this is awesome
15:04:19 <BenO> Anyone else terrified by the lyrics?
15:04:32 <mischat> yup, i am close to being ill
15:04:39 <BenO> "open my windows to you"
15:04:52 <libby> inapproporite for children!
15:04:53 <mischat> YAY finished now
15:05:04 <mischat> yup, it was very odd
15:05:06 <shellac> I think he said it was written in 92 (?)
15:05:20 <mischat> no excuse ...
15:05:32 <BenO> libby, Definitely :)
15:06:09 <shellac> Somebody grab mhausenblas
15:06:16 <mischat> eh, i said 5 mins ;)
15:06:55 <BenO> mhausenblas, run!
15:08:09 <mischat> gah, the stream keeps freezing up
15:08:24 <BenO> It's everyone jumping on :)
15:08:26 <swh> for me too
15:08:34 <BenO> timbl fanbois ;)
15:08:53 <mischat> \me throws underwear at screen
15:09:01 <shellac> Scribing on iPhone impossible. Apologies
15:09:20 <mischat> f**k
15:09:35 <BenO> mischat, Huh? what up?
15:09:46 <mischat> skipping
15:10:32 <mischat> they need more interweb at cern hehe
15:11:08 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas watching TimV as well ;)
15:11:49 <BenO> mischat, Hmm I'm getting a decent feed ..
15:12:01 <mhausenblas> I love it
15:12:13 <mischat> swh: is it because we are both watching it from here ?
15:12:18 <swh> I've closed mine mischat, maybe it's a local problem
15:13:13 <libby> [timbl]: don't get people to change the way they work; make everything have a url
15:13:58 <libby> ...and make it universal, for everything
15:14:27 <BenO> [timbl] It's no good having a web for work and a web for academia
15:14:30 <libby> ...any OS, hardware, language
15:15:15 <libby> ...culture
15:16:01 <libby> ...cern not charging royalities was very important
15:16:20 <libby> ...agree on a few simple thing: use uris, http server
15:16:38 <libby> ...now saying this for data: use rdf, else the same
15:16:57 <nathany> nathany has joined #swig
15:16:57 <bblfish> bblfish has quit
15:16:59 <libby> ...linked open data is now ike how the web was 20 years ago
15:17:02 <LarsNO> LarsNO has quit
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15:17:22 <lheuer> lheuer has quit
15:17:35 <mhausenblas> [timbl] don't look back
15:17:39 <libby> ...web is still innovating like mad
15:17:46 <mhausenblas> ... look forward!
15:18:06 <libby> ...new stuff we'd never imagined
15:18:37 <mhausenblas> ... the Web of Data as a base for processing
15:19:06 <mhausenblas> ... when the Web took off - thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhek
15:19:09 <mhausenblas> ;)
15:19:26 <mhausenblas> ... all happened in the US, so I went there (had to)
15:20:04 <libby> ...recent important stuff: mobile web initiative, more browesrs on phones than laptops, and developing countries often only way people can use the internet
15:20:28 <libby> ...also getting data out there
15:20:28 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas notes that libby is a better scribe than me ;)
15:20:41 <Arnia> Arnia has joined #swig
15:20:53 <libby> * libby is gonna run out power soon :(
15:21:09 <mhausenblas> TimBL now starts with linked data (design note)
15:21:16 <libby> ...article timbl wrote called linked data
15:21:17 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas trying to keep up
15:21:44 <mhausenblas> ... you can do stuff with data that you can't do with documents
15:21:48 <libby> ...picked up using depedia and other things - movement called linked open data - gte that data out there
15:22:11 <mhausenblas> ... put the data behind the Web site out there
15:22:17 <libby> ...lots of people would love to get their hands on cern data for example
15:22:22 <BenO> Oh noes... web feed just died
15:22:29 <libby> ...demand that govenment put the data on the web
15:22:39 <libby> ...as tax payers
15:22:49 <libby> ...also collab data like open street maps
15:23:08 <libby> ...veryinteresting resources
15:23:14 <mhausenblas> (quite similar to TED talk, isn't it ;)
15:23:22 <libby> ...also social networking data, people fed up with hoarding data
15:23:59 <mhausenblas> ... mentions DanBri
15:24:01 <libby> ...see TED.com talk
15:24:09 <libby> ...more on there about this
15:24:59 <libby> ...now 10 power 11 webpages, the number of neurons in your brain
15:25:11 <bengee> heh, did he just mention beer?
15:25:16 <libby> yeah :-)
15:25:21 <mhausenblas> ... which go down with every beer
15:25:24 <libby> ...beer kills neurons
15:25:47 <BenO> timbl++
15:25:56 <libby> ...web is just stuff, but full of communities, need a psychologist tounderstand it, and an economist...and...
15:26:11 <libby> ...to undderstand where people mkaes links
15:26:54 <libby> ...is society on the web stable? will blogs be relatively true or turn into consiracy theor only? could the planet be taken over by mad ideas at once becaues of the web?
15:27:10 <libby> ...web is something to study - web science initiative
15:27:11 <mhausenblas> now talks about Web Science
15:28:10 <libby> ...80% of humanty doesn;t use the web at all
15:28:40 <jhalv> jhalv has quit
15:28:45 <libby> ...that's why needs standards and devices and network, and social stuff
15:29:15 <libby> ...people can be very creative when they have few power resources
15:29:45 <libby> ...in proces of makign the webfoundation.org
15:29:58 <tobyink> beer does kill neurons, but only the weak ones.
15:30:00 <libby> ..addressing more broadly that the web should serve humanity.
15:30:19 <libby> tobyink: so darwinian!
15:30:33 <libby> * libby needs power :(
15:30:34 <tobyink> indeed - so ultimately, beer makes you smarter.
15:31:00 <libby> :D
15:31:01 <libby> good
15:31:13 <libby> * libby must be very smart then :P
15:31:45 <libby> [timbl]: thanking friends at cern, for being cool, laughing at project names
15:31:58 <BenO> * BenO claps alone in office...
15:31:59 <libby> ...great to have the popportunity to come back and say thanks
15:32:51 <mhausenblas> Q&A session
15:32:59 <mhausenblas> 1. Will the SW ever work?
15:33:18 <mhausenblas>  TimBL: mentions exponential graph
15:33:18 <JibberJim> JibberJim has quit
15:33:27 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas has no stream anymore, damn
15:33:45 <mhausenblas> anyone else able to scribe?
15:34:13 <shellac> On different scales you get different take off points
15:34:22 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas thanks shellac 
15:34:23 <BenO> ... semantic web is happening right now
15:34:25 <mintsauce> mintsauce has joined #swig
15:34:37 <JibberJim> JibberJim has joined #swig
15:34:52 <mhausenblas> 2. Would you do something different?
15:35:08 <mhausenblas>  TimBL: reverse order in URI
15:35:15 <shellac> Http/CERN/info
15:35:36 <mhausenblas> like dates 2009/03/13
15:35:50 <mhausenblas> most important information first
15:35:51 <BenO> ..... dates should always be in astronomical format YYYY/MM/DD
15:35:56 <shellac> Uk did work like that
15:36:06 <mhausenblas> go to com.google.www ;)
15:36:12 <shellac> Uk.ac.bris
15:36:45 <mhausenblas> mentions politics in DNS
15:36:49 <BenO> .... Q. How did you get the idea for the WWW? - Ans. read the book
15:36:53 <mhausenblas> :)
15:37:04 <mhausenblas> takes question form the audience
15:37:08 <BenO> Urgh journo mentions privacy...
15:37:10 <mhausenblas> a journalist
15:37:12 <BenO> cant hear him
15:37:15 <BenO> properly
15:37:27 <shellac> It was obvious (serious answer)
15:37:50 <libby> libby has quit
15:38:03 <mhausenblas> Q: isn't privacy a threat?
15:38:04 <dc_swig> Label Q not found.
15:38:06 <libby> libby has joined #swig
15:38:21 <mhausenblas> TimBL: not everything is open - you have to log on
15:38:27 <shellac> * shellac hypnotised by remote flash on journo camera
15:38:56 <libby> * libby found power, thanks to a nice jounalist
15:38:58 <libby> ...problems when mix info that you get because you are  afriend with other info
15:39:12 <libby> ...need to have appropriate uses for data tagged along with it
15:39:17 <libby> q: what are the threats we should worry baout?
15:39:32 <BenO> ... Q. you hinted at threats, what are they?
15:39:42 <libby> [timbl]: many are at the infrastructure level
15:39:43 <BenO> ... threats more at the infrestructure level
15:39:46 <libby> heh
15:39:59 <libby> double scribing
15:40:09 <BenO> libby, Soz :)
15:40:12 <libby> no no!
15:40:25 <shellac> Paladine: dpi mention for you
15:40:35 <BenO> ... the fact that when information goes through the internet, it is good that it can do so unmolested
15:40:40 <libby> ...interfering wth data, filtering or ad, or snooping - lots would like to do that, governments and companes
15:41:03 <BenO> ... but govs and industry want to or are filtering, adding ads, snooping, deep-packet inspection
15:41:11 <libby> ...snooping on web traffic now builds a hugely detailed picture of you
15:41:45 <BenO> ... keep the web as something you can use, so that you can click on something and not worry that someone out there will know what you clicked on
15:42:13 <BenO> ... Q. As it is very easy to download [everything], are you afraid that internet will collapse?
15:42:16 <mhausenblas> ... for example cancer or gay site
15:42:18 <libby> beno: llet me know when you get tired
15:42:25 <libby> of scribing
15:43:12 <BenO> ... ISPs are getting very clever with their Quality of  Service - movie watchers might loose a frame, before you'd lose a text message
15:43:27 <BenO> ... but bandwidth is getting bigger and bigger
15:43:34 <EmmaP_> EmmaP_ has joined #swig
15:44:00 <BenO> ... [timbl] I think it's an issue, but maybe we don't have to have internet services that deliver HQ video
15:44:03 <libby>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service - intersting stuff
15:44:08 <BenO> ... for developing world
15:44:16 <mhausenblas> oh, steven is aksing ;)
15:44:39 <BenO> ... Q. I wonder if you anticipated client-side applications such as ... (didnt hear)
15:45:12 <shellac> Scripting (I think)
15:45:13 <BenO> argh webstream glitch
15:45:19 <BenO> cant scribe
15:45:45 <toresbe> toresbe has joined #swig
15:45:53 <BenO> libby, cant scribe...
15:46:01 <leobard> leobard has quit
15:46:01 <shellac> Answer: you could dowload csh, mentioned running it as a bad idea
15:46:18 <toresbe> toresbe has left #swig
15:46:26 <shellac> Somebody mentions viola
15:46:41 <shellac> Could have become the standard
15:47:12 <mhausenblas> agh, seems that more and more people are using the stream
15:47:19 <mhausenblas> keeps breaking down
15:47:20 <shellac> (panel takes the stage)
15:47:35 <BenO> ... Chris Bizier, Tom Scott, Dan Brickley called to panel + someone (missed their name)
15:47:56 <Arnia> Arnia has quit
15:48:05 <libby> ...a new group comes on stage: chris, stephane, danbri and timbl
15:48:18 <libby> ...danbri foaf, community stuffs
15:48:30 <shellac> And tom?
15:48:30 <libby> ..chris - linked data, grass roots, community
15:48:34 <libby> argh
15:48:37 <libby> * libby cannot see 
15:48:41 <libby> ...and tom!
15:48:48 <BenO> ... Stephane Boyare(?) will cover mobile web
15:48:54 <shellac> Tom Scott
15:49:11 <libby> ...chris: founder dbpedia, initiator of linking open data project
15:49:18 <BenO> ... Chris Bizer takes the stand
15:49:20 <libby> ..chris bizer that is
15:49:36 <BenO> ... cue faff with ppt
15:49:46 <libby> * libby finds a chair :-)
15:49:53 <mintsauce> * mintsauce wonders what event is being scribed? (Joined half way through)
15:49:57 <BenO> ... 5 mins talk about linking open data project
15:50:14 <libby> ...grassroost project to extend web with adtaa commons
15:50:19 <libby> a data commons
15:50:30 <BenO> ... making data with open licences and publishing them as Linked Data
15:50:34 <shellac> mintsauce: 20 years of web at CERN
15:50:37 <BenO> ... taking data with open licences and publishing them as Linked Data
15:50:54 <BenO> ... May 2007 - beginning of Linked open data project
15:51:01 <IvanHerman> IvanHerman has quit
15:51:06 <libby> ...500million rdf triples, 120,000 data links between data resources
15:51:21 <libby> ...as of sept 2007
15:51:52 <libby> ...sept 2008, now 4.5billion picees of information, 180million links
15:51:58 <libby> (bliemy)
15:52:29 <libby> ...lots of peple activities, music, life csineces, geo locations, publications, general
15:52:51 <libby> ...all linked, so can use generic data browsers such as tabulator, timbl 2007
15:53:10 <libby> ...another one is 'marbles'
15:53:13 <BenO> ... (screen shows timbl's foaf)
15:53:34 <BenO> ... (screen shows timbl's foaf and other things from the datasets)
15:53:36 <libby> ...marbles shows how many dbs say what
15:53:55 <libby> ...shows falcons, finds cern in [lots of] dbs
15:54:06 <libby> ...can be rendered how we like
15:54:41 <BenO> ... (screen shows DBpedia mobile running/rendered on an iPhone)
15:54:48 <libby> ...also there's webapis - access to dbs over apis, but these cannot be linked between dbs only within them
15:54:58 <BenO> ... web apis slice the web into separate data silos
15:55:26 <libby> ...can't impliement apps against all data on the web - have to change your app - webapis = silos
15:56:05 <libby> Tom Scott up next
15:56:13 <libby> ...natural history online project
15:56:28 <libby> ..interesrted in how t build the web for eeryone to use
15:56:55 <BenO> catty comment ;)
15:57:17 <libby> tom: stephen fry saud that wanted to make computers more human literate not the reverse
15:57:30 <libby> ...it's improving
15:57:53 <libby> ...steal an idea form william gibson - future is here just not very evenily distributed
15:58:28 <libby> ...bbc - lots of microsites, not across broad spectrum of all bbc services
15:58:36 <libby> ...one massive website woudln;t have worked
15:58:54 <libby> ...would like to suggest that bbc is likea microcosm of the web
15:59:17 <libby> ...within each microsite coherent, but you can't follow your nose outside
15:59:26 <libby> ...can't find everything bbc knows abotu jeremy clarkson
15:59:41 <shellac> Oh boy, clarkson gets everywhere
15:59:44 <eikeon> eikeon has quit
15:59:54 <libby> ....thigs are changing - v talented people at bbc; we start with the data - the things and cocepts that matter to people
16:00:05 <libby> ...each of these things we gave them a uri
16:00:51 <libby> ...progreammes is trying to provide a webproesence for every programme on bbc. a derefereacable url with info at the end, rdf, html, mobile site
16:01:04 <libby> ...also music - based on musicbrainz - tried to give a page per artist
16:01:25 <libby> ...other programems that have also played that artist
16:01:40 <cerealtom> cerealtom has joined #swig
16:01:49 <libby> ...current project, bbc earth, same trick for nat histury - page for every concept in the nat hist domain
16:01:56 <libby> ...website in all 3 cases is the api
16:02:08 <libby> ...this is linked data
16:02:24 <libby> ...but we didn;t realise this at first. we caredd deeply about uris
16:02:42 <libby> ...making  info available to machines and people via pis, to break out of microsites
16:03:02 <libby> ...mor ehuman literate, more himan shaped, less document centric
16:03:17 <libby> ...semantic web has helped bbc move away from web pages towards concepts and data
16:03:20 <libby> [yay!]
16:04:05 <libby> ...hope web is becoming more human literate; way to do this is derefreable urls, linked data. Only approach that scales and makes for coherent, human literate websites
16:04:24 <libby> Danbri up
16:04:48 <libby> intro: helped craete stnards in w3c now back in academia at VNU, created foaf
16:04:51 <npe> npe has quit
16:04:57 <mhausenblas> you' re mentioned libby!!!!
16:04:59 <BenO> ... libby get's name-checked :)
16:04:59 <mhausenblas> ;)
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16:05:17 <maxf> maxf has joined #swig
16:05:28 <libby> [danbri]: shamelessly stoeln graphics form tim in trinute to him
16:05:32 <libby> *tribute
16:05:40 <cerealtom> hey, didnt realise danbri was back to academia. nice one danbri
16:05:42 <libby> ...web of data is in there from the start
16:05:51 <libby> ..check out the diagrams
16:06:16 <libby> ..."vague but exciting" - differrnt kinds of links in the orginal diagram - some doc to doc, some people to doc....
16:06:40 <libby> ...what is going on there? some are hypertext links some facts about the world
16:07:12 <libby> ...semweb project is about unreavelling the mystery of the links between docss to links etween realm life things we really care about
16:07:30 <libby> [shows '94 doc, blue one]
16:07:50 <libby> ...web is flat and boring, links between web and things give it depth
16:08:03 <libby> ...web shoadows aspects of reality
16:08:21 <drrho> drrho has joined #swig
16:08:23 <libby> ...dpcuments make claims about the world out there
16:08:45 <libby> [missed a bit]
16:09:09 <libby> ...some claims don't necessary agree; chris showed some provenance information, where the claims come from
16:09:25 <libby> ...disagreements are processible
16:09:31 <libby> ...rel to foaf?
16:09:45 <libby> ...in 2000 wanted to see some reality!
16:09:54 <libby> ...collab with libby and shellac (damian)
16:10:11 <cerealtom> libby++
16:10:16 <cerealtom> shellac++
16:10:30 <libby> ...loved the extensions peope made - japan - bloodtype; family tree, language skills, doap - description fo a project
16:10:37 <libby> * libby blushes
16:10:53 <libby> ...each new dataset about music increases the ability of me to describe my musical taste
16:10:54 <nicolasnova> nicolasnova has joined #swig
16:11:10 <libby> ..agrigulture data, science data
16:11:27 <libby> ...foaf is tiny and boring project in a way. but can link to the rest of the bits of the web
16:11:57 <libby> ...last yeah, google social graph, yahoo search monkey [something in russia sorry missed it] garlik (qdos)
16:12:06 <mischat> yeah !
16:12:07 <libby> ...exciting times, can add get more information
16:12:20 <mintsauce> mintsauce has quit
16:12:20 <libby> ...read the document that's 20 years old READ IT! READ IT!
16:12:29 <libby> ...not mystical doc
16:12:43 <libby> [image credits timbl, iand]
16:12:47 <swh> yandex in russia
16:12:49 <cerealtom> thing in russia was yandex
16:12:52 <libby> thanks swh
16:12:53 <cerealtom> i think
16:12:58 <libby> and cerealtom
16:13:04 <libby> stephane up
16:13:07 <nicolasnova> yandex?
16:13:18 <libby> ...chair of  mobile web, stephane boyer
16:13:29 <Lars-NO> Lars-NO has joined #swig
16:13:34 <maxf> s/boyer/boyera/
16:13:35 <libby> [stephane]: wents to talk about www foundation
16:13:40 <libby> d'oh thanks maxf
16:13:43 <libby> and hi!
16:13:47 <maxf> * maxf waves :)
16:14:12 <libby> ...extend the web to the other 5 billion - can the web be useful to them and improve their lives
16:14:15 <shellac> No opera peeps here, are there?
16:14:19 <libby> ...potentially yes, we think
16:14:52 <libby> ...e.g. solution to provide education and teacher when no school; banking and microcredits when no bank; doctor where no doctor
16:15:06 <libby> ...also the 4billion mobie phones out there
16:15:07 <maxf> shellac, nope. Opera doesn't indulge in self congratulation. They work!
16:15:19 <libby> ...minimal computing power and connectivity; great oopportunity
16:15:52 <maxf> * maxf really really wishes he'd been able to go, now that he knows who's there
16:15:54 <libby> ...challenge is to lower the barrier to develop, deploy and access serviecs - e.g. social - for those devices
16:16:00 <libby> ...like being in the early 90s
16:16:27 <libby> ...also shoudl be accessible for low literacy rates, in local languages, most of which are not on the web, no charset, not renderable
16:16:46 <libby> ...how can we help people finding content and services when they have no previous experiences
16:17:00 <libby> ...relevant, suable and usful for people in developing countries
16:17:37 <libby> ...many NGOs and potential social entrepreneuros who could help their communities - how do we enable and empower them to autor and deploy services
16:18:09 <libby> ...several aspects - raising awareness, mobile is not closed, can dev for it; training, supporting them through open sources and free tools
16:18:18 <libby> [/me thought these were 4 mins each!]
16:18:43 <libby> ...just starting to build p strategy for the foundation. want to have an impact in this domain
16:18:47 <shellac> maxf: Curious collection of people
16:19:28 <maxf> shellac: or a menagerie of mythical monsters? ;)
16:19:39 <libby> host: "few mins for discussion, though standing between 300 people and the cocktails"
16:19:55 <libby> ...what sorts of apps can we expect?
16:20:07 <libby> chirs: move form a search engine to an answer engine - not docs but answers
16:20:58 <libby> danbri: flying through data in 3d - no! slightly better search results, between mail folder organisatons, data to flow so that less rekeying
16:21:18 <shellac> maxf: Chaals isn't here. You'd need him for a managerie, I reckon
16:21:31 <justben> Live webcast at http://webcast.cern.ch/ seems to be working well for me at least, in case anyone missed the link like I did.
16:21:32 <cerealtom> but danbri, i *want* to fly through data! spoilsport ;)
16:21:56 <libby> stephane: currently proof of concept but there are for example: fishing community in india query market price by sms, they can take their fish to best place - increasing income by 8%
16:22:03 <Paladine> shellac, that is some of the things he said at the meeting on wednesday
16:22:09 <libby> the future of the web is text!
16:22:30 <libby> [stephane]: price is better, less wastage.
16:22:50 <BenO> cerealtom, What's the population of India, you ask? Hand me my Talis-trademarked biosuit! I'm going in!
16:22:57 <BenO> * BenO swims through data....
16:23:00 <shellac> cerealtom: We tried it, and it was weak. See the mcf browser screenshots
16:23:00 <libby> ...in bangladesh you have to register a baby or it doesn;t exist for entire life, cannot leave country, access services etc - now can do it via  mobile phone - has changed things massively
16:23:49 <libby> Q: 4.5billion records - are relational dbs going to be able to scale to cope? are there going to be more scehamless ones instead? how will this scale up?
16:23:50 <dc_swig> Label Q not found.
16:23:53 <besbes> besbes has joined #swig
16:24:29 <cerealtom> BenO: lol :) shellac: but i want to really fly! whats the mcf browser?
16:25:02 <ldodds> * ldodds starts sewing his data suit
16:25:08 <libby> [timbl]: data is different shapes. some is square. some is very messy and linky and not suare at all
16:25:17 <libby> s/suare/square/
16:25:24 <libby> ...need diff dbs for diff systems
16:25:57 <shellac> cerealtom: Name escapes me. Looking
16:26:20 <libby> ...asking a question of it - all the electrian at cern at a particular time when something was happeneing..joining very differently shaped things like this optimation - needs more research
16:27:04 <libby> [chris]:people are building data centres near poer ad a river - its a very interesting topic
16:27:24 <libby> [host]: a note form 1614: we are going to be overloadde with al these books!
16:27:39 <shellac> cerealtom: Doh! Hotsauce! I named brownsauce after it
16:27:46 <libby> [timbl]: we wpuld liketo meet any db engineers who are interested inbthis topic
16:27:54 <cerealtom> ta shellac
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16:28:24 <nicolasnova> “one of the diseases of this age is the multiplicity of books; they doth so overcharge the world that it is not able to digest the abundance of idle matter that is every day hatched and brought forth into the world“ Barnaby Rich (1580-1617), writing in 1613.
16:28:33 <libby> Q: [lady from beeb] - negroponte told her that tech would make us more asynchronous - how will semweb change our lives, philiosphcally?
16:28:34 <cerealtom> is this a "facebook gives you cancer" question?
16:28:34 <dc_swig> Label Q not found.
16:28:42 <libby> I liked the q
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16:29:04 <libby> who wa sthat masked man!
16:29:15 <cerealtom> libby: yeah, actually it got better as it went on
16:30:00 <libby> [timbl]: imagine a calendar that linked into the music from a music event you were going to - so more connected. your life is connected but your computer doesn;t undersatd taht
16:30:21 <libby> ...yet
16:30:57 <justben> Heh. TimBL actually pronounced “danbri.” I thought I was the only one who did that.
16:30:59 <BenO> * BenO just noticed he handed to danbri, by saying '... Danbri'
16:31:10 <libby> [danbri]: social etworking sites - georgraphical clustering that separates populations form each other - can't make friend accross these divides very easily - orkut for a while big in iran, beebo and ireland
16:31:27 <libby> all the w3cers call him danbri - because dan connolly is dan to them :-)
16:31:45 <reto> reto has quit
16:31:48 <libby> ..social network group XG at w3c wotrth a look at that for interop
16:31:55 <libby> ...joining up nations!
16:32:51 <libby> [tom]: social etworks are on the web but not of the web ...uris for people will come ... and openid to claim identitied - can connect with peoepl on the web really
16:33:12 <libby> Q: to what extent is bandwidth a restriction on this stuff?
16:33:14 <dc_swig> Label Q not found.
16:34:17 <libby> [timbl]: for readwrite web it is important - stephen pemberton says that everyone should have own website; don't want to be owned by for example one job site. control - master of your data
16:34:25 <libby> ...in which case there may be a lot of traffic
16:35:23 <cerealtom> that was an almost clive anderson-like moment there from timbl
16:35:41 <libby> ...video - fractal nature of the web - some huge places, long tail of small things. CERN frighteningly large amount of data; also hidef moves, hidef 3d movies - but lots of stuff, images, phonecalls doesn;t stretch it.
16:36:04 <libby> [stephenp]: bw doubled every 10.5 months for the same price
16:36:43 <shellac> cerealtom: He insulted the bee gees?
16:36:54 <libby> [stephane]: in my area we people say we shoudl wait for higher bw phones etc - but we need to act today and not wait - lots is still possible
16:37:31 <libby> Q from webofthings guy: what are the concreete activities wrt the web of things area
16:38:22 <libby> [timbl]: sw and linked data applies well to sensor networks, your fridge on the web. any particular arae we shold be pursing you think?
16:38:47 <libby> questoiner: why not just use the web?
16:39:09 <libby> [timbl]: linked data web is the most effective way f talking about it now, but machine processib;e data aspect also imporatnt
16:40:33 <libby> [stephane]: w3c ubiquitous web domain + mobile web initiaitive + webapps wg + also voice, multimodel stuff; IMO, I've been in this domain for 10 years - industry not ready for standards yet, just exploratory
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16:41:47 <libby> [timbl]: ubiqutous screens might be sooner than we think - getting cheaper - in the future more and more screens - basiaclly device indepepndence
16:42:22 <libby> Q: commercial future of the web - how do you see commercial apps on top of sw and lnking data?
16:42:24 <dc_swig> Label Q not found.
16:42:45 <libby> [timbl]: do you mean without advertising? (because so much is ads based atm)
16:43:35 <libby> ...there's a lot of the web that has no ads - small part of the commercial aspect of the web. catalogues, etc. Lots of data that's commercially orientated but which has no ads
16:44:20 <libby> ..imagine a seller of cars with specs, links to models, availability, colour, - I want a red car in geneva
16:44:36 <libby> ...if you dont have one then you're gone
16:44:48 <libby> ...will be just like hte web - competitive advantage
16:45:03 <libby> ....
16:45:10 <libby> calling everyone form teh day onstage
16:45:31 <connolly__> connolly__ has joined #swig
16:45:59 <libby> ...and bye...
16:46:03 <BenO> libby++ - awesome scribing
16:46:20 <BenO> * BenO needs a drink now, not that he is suggestable...
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16:47:00 <mischat> libby++ for scribing
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16:47:55 <mhausenblas> libby and Beno thanks!
16:48:11 <mhausenblas> BenO:  will have my Guinness as well soon ;)
16:48:37 <mhausenblas> ok, now as this show is over the next is about to begin:
16:48:38 <mhausenblas> http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/
16:48:39 <dc_swig> G: http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/ from mhausenblas
16:48:43 <libby> cheers all
16:49:03 <mhausenblas> G:| RDForms generator, demonstrator for the pushback fusion engine
16:49:05 <dc_swig> Titled item G.
16:49:16 <mhausenblas> G: create your own RDForm on the fly
16:49:18 <dc_swig> Added comment G1.
16:49:24 <BenO> mhausenblas++ - will play with this soon :)
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16:49:39 <mhausenblas> G: currently only <input type="text" ... implemented ...
16:49:41 <dc_swig> Added comment G2.
16:49:43 <mhausenblas> cool BenO
16:49:46 <mhausenblas> thanks
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16:50:21 <BenO> mhausenblas, It'll most likely find a place in the edit forms for http://brii.medsci.ox.ac.uk/
16:50:27 <BenO> well, 'forms'
16:50:36 <mhausenblas> G: other HTML field as of http://esw.w3.org/topic/PushBackDataToLegacySourcesRDForms to follow soon
16:50:38 <dc_swig> Added comment G3.
16:50:52 <BenO> I'm aiming for Flickr style in page editing of people, project, etc info
16:50:57 <mhausenblas> G: for an example output see http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/test.html
16:50:58 <dc_swig> Added comment G4.
16:51:06 <mhausenblas> very cool BenO
16:51:37 <BenO> So that the 'form' is injected into the RDFa already in the page
16:51:42 <mhausenblas> just note that this is just the begining
16:51:52 <mhausenblas> sounds great
16:51:55 <BenO> mhausenblas, Sure, but I like where it seems to be leading/
16:51:59 <BenO> :)
16:52:07 <mhausenblas> gimme some more days and the fusion engine is ready to go
16:52:22 <mhausenblas> where? bleeding edge?
16:52:26 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas looks behind him
16:52:30 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas sees it
16:52:38 <mhausenblas> in the far distance
16:52:38 <BenO> heh, :)
16:52:39 <mhausenblas> :D
16:53:03 <mhausenblas> seriously, when we get this done, this will be the next big step in Web of Data
16:53:26 <BenO> r -> r/w
16:53:35 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas preparing the Jira pushback screen cast before of to the FAWM
16:53:41 <mhausenblas> yeah, BenO++
16:53:58 <BenO> FAWM? February Album Writing Month?
16:54:00 <mhausenblas> it opened my eyes - how could I have not seen this before
16:54:10 <mhausenblas> FAWM ... Friday after-work meeting
16:54:18 <mhausenblas> == drink till you ...
16:54:21 <mhausenblas> are tired
16:54:25 <BenO> indeed :)
16:54:26 <ldodds> mhausenblas: is there a diagram of how this hangs together (for my poor addled brain)
16:54:30 <mhausenblas> ldodds:
16:54:35 <mhausenblas> I'm doing it
16:54:38 <mhausenblas> after coding
16:54:45 <mhausenblas> that is, this weekend
16:54:56 <mhausenblas> my idea: have some running code
16:55:02 <mhausenblas> people can look at and play around
16:55:10 <mhausenblas> than abstract and paint diagrams ;)
16:55:18 <ldodds> there some indirection I'm not getting
16:55:20 <mhausenblas> have an eye on http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/test.html
16:55:27 <mhausenblas> sure, me neither ldodds
16:55:36 <mhausenblas> seriously
16:55:39 <mhausenblas> but that's fine
16:56:00 <mhausenblas> we can cut out and through out till it is really as simple as necessary but not simpler
16:56:16 <mhausenblas> when you get my point ... ;)
16:56:34 <cerealtom> mhausenblas: "403 Forbidden: The server understood the request, but is refusing to fulfill it."
16:56:37 <mhausenblas> I first tried to discuss on the abstract level, but there everybody reads something else
16:56:40 <mhausenblas> where?
16:56:51 <mhausenblas> cerealtom: at CERN as well?
16:56:58 <mhausenblas> whic URI, cerealtom
16:57:23 <cerealtom> mhausenblas: http://twitter.com/status/update
16:57:32 <cerealtom> unsuprisingly ;)
16:57:35 <cerealtom> i guess
16:57:35 <ldodds> mhausenblas: I've done some work on processing forms to generate RDF and apply updates, just trying to compare fusion with that
16:57:59 <ldodds> (nothing public unfortunately)
16:58:10 <cerealtom> mhausenblas: what should i put as a value in the Label field?
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16:59:07 <BenO> cerealtom, It won't auth without some hidden fields IIRC about twitter api
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17:00:03 <cerealtom> * cerealtom remains confused about what i'm seeing
17:00:15 <mhausenblas> cerealtom: just got a call from cygri (at CERN) sorry ... :)
17:00:28 <mhausenblas> cerealtom: what's the confusion - can I help ;)
17:00:33 <BenO> cerealtom, For me, it's not this precisely, but the idea of rdfa-ising form controls
17:00:51 <BenO> cerealtom, and sending back the rdf(a) via an AJAX push
17:01:04 <cerealtom> mhausenblas: np :) just trying http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/test.html and not sure what i'm supposed to see or enter
17:01:05 <ldodds> BenO: yep, I get that aspect
17:01:08 <mhausenblas> cerealtom: it only works with the pushbck_demo account
17:01:21 <mhausenblas> not there ;)
17:01:21 <BenO> To allow Flickr-style updating of information already RDFa-ised
17:01:23 <mhausenblas> here: http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/
17:01:41 <mhausenblas> the http://ld2sd.deri.org/pushback/fusion/test.htm is just the *result*
17:01:43 <cerealtom> mhausenblas: ah, ok. will leave it for now and play another day :)
17:01:47 <mhausenblas> right
17:01:49 <mhausenblas> take care
17:02:12 <ldodds> What I've done in the past, which might be a useful extension (or might not, as I'm not sure I grok it yet) is some declarative ways to add behaviour to the form
17:02:17 <mhausenblas> ldodds: ah, interesting (re 'processing forms to generate RDF and apply updates')
17:02:26 <mhausenblas> example?
17:02:36 <ldodds> not public, but I could describe it if you're interested
17:02:37 <mhausenblas> behaviour as in cRUD
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17:02:40 <mhausenblas> please
17:03:39 <ldodds> So I had a js library to handle serializing a form as RDF (actually RDF in JSON, but whatever), based on RDFa-style markup
17:03:56 <ldodds> But the js library also understood a microformat to add stuff like:
17:04:01 <ldodds> this section is repeatable
17:04:17 <ldodds> e.g. I might want to repeat a block that allows me to enter a list of contacts
17:05:04 <ldodds> So the form acquired the ability to add/remove sections, and the form -> RDF serialization code used the same markup to ensure it handled the serialization correctly
17:05:09 <libby> libby has quit
17:05:44 <ldodds> Actually populating the form with initial data was just done in the templating layer, using RDF extracted from the backend using CONSTRUCT queries
17:06:20 <ldodds> Writing the data back to the database involved taking the POSTed RDF, and then doing some graph algebra on that sub-graph, and the version available from the original CONSTRUCT
17:06:36 <ldodds> so the code didn't actually care what was being added or removed
17:07:00 <BenO> ldodds, Cool - what I was thinking about was injecting a 'form' around RDFa marked up text dynamically, so that alterations can be made and later on, the page committed back the server as RDFa.
17:07:27 <ldodds> yes
17:07:49 <ldodds> you probably still want some behaviour there though, even if just to handle form validation, repeated structures, etc
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17:08:18 <ldodds> kwijibo has done some work on generating forms from RDF too
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17:09:31 <tobyink> RDF/XML slash FOAF autodiscovery question : when following rel=meta, how many tools send a Referer header?
17:09:46 <BenO> ldodds, true enough, I was going to leave validation to be client+server side (as you attempt a change each triple, a che
17:10:02 <BenO> a check is fired off to the server, or in js.
17:10:02 <tobyink> (for anyone who knows)
17:10:23 <BenO> and in js*
17:10:26 <ldodds> BenO: I had both. Used declarative markup in HTML to attach JS based validation
17:10:40 <ldodds> and some RDF Schema annotations on the server side to validate individual properties
17:10:46 <melvster> ldodds: i think the old foaf-o-matic does a good job serializing a form, i reprogrammed it slighly to use jquery and property="foaf:nick" for example, rather than ids, with the idea to write something general to get rdf from a form where you can change form elements quite easily and the js will still serialize it, though ive not finished it yet, would hope to reuse a standard pattern
17:10:51 <ldodds> I also used similar technique to handle identifier assignments
17:11:21 <ldodds> melvster: yeah, I would have done it that way too if JQuery had been around :)
17:11:25 <BenO> ldodds, I'll make a note to try to steal^H^H^H^H learn from your code :)
17:11:51 <ldodds> well its not all out there yet, I'm rebuilding parts of it cos it was done as an internal project at previous employer
17:12:01 <ldodds> I've blogged/talked about aspects of it though
17:12:12 <ldodds> * ldodds realises thats a poor substitute to running code
17:12:47 <BenO> ldodds, I'm going to need to start doing it for the BRII project thingy soon as it's going to need smarter forms
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17:14:03 <ldodds> If I were doing it now, I'd base it around RDFa, but the rest still holds together I think
17:15:06 <BenO> ldodds, I'm having a go at RDFa being the base currency - with indexes built from parsing it when create/modify actions hit it
17:15:13 <mhausenblas> ldodds: yes, kwijibo's work is referenced in puhback
17:15:53 <mhausenblas> main difference: due to the power of jQuery and rdfquery we can do everything client side now
17:16:03 <mhausenblas> beside the controller that talks with the RDF wrapper
17:16:10 <mhausenblas> due to XSS, you know ;)
17:16:21 <mhausenblas> nice type: puhback
17:16:26 <mhausenblas> typo
17:16:47 <mhausenblas> demand, /me should stop writing and start having Guinness ;)
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17:17:00 <ldodds> yes its about that time isn't it
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17:17:04 <melvster> the nice thing about doing things client side with js is that it's consistent with tabulator
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17:19:23 <mhausenblas> melvster: yes :)
17:19:37 <mhausenblas> * mhausenblas checking in code into svn
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